Forgotten children of Islam and Christianity
February 28, 2011 19 Comments
This post is a follow up post for my previous post India land of diversities and hypocrisies which evoked some responses I would like to reply to. I have used the various sites for research in my article and some segments of my text have been sourced from them. Names of all of them are present in the reference section. I have taken care to only take neutral or Muslim resources as reference so that my Muslims brothers don’t accuse me of using one sided data.
It is known fact that caste/birth based inequalities do exist in Hinduism. Government has provided caste based reservations to uplift their status. Recently there have been demands from Christian and Muslim Dalits to be included in the SC/ST/OBC categories citing they also faced some discrimination and economic inequalities like the Hindu Dalits. I don’t disagree with them since almost all of them are Hindus which converted to Islam or Christianity because of their personal reasons. Though one of them was probably that they were promised freedom from those inequalities but I don’t get into that now. They converted, their decision.
What pushed me to write this piece were comments by a Muslim reader, denying all of this and condemning Hinduism for having caste inequalities. I have problem with any discrimination in any religion in any part of world because of BIRTH. I am a Hindu and I accept that there were injustice done to some people in past. These people need be brought into mainstream. Though I don’t agree with the methods being adopted, but that is a separate issue.
I remember a quote by a Muslim speaker which I suddenly find even more true – ” Those following 340 million gods are divided amongst themselves( reference to Hindus), but why are we Muslims still divided when we all follow only 1 God”.
The irony as I see is as follows -
My friend Amir was totally correct in saying that there is no concept of CASTE in ISLAM. I can’t agree more. But hey ! why are then the Muslims in India asking caste based reservation ???
If they are Muslims , then they can’t be dalits because as per Quran, there is no concept of Dalit.
As I see the issue is that , Muslims have to realize that under these circumstances we need to see the context. They have to accept that they also have BIRTH/ CASTE based inequalities instead of constantly denying them and any attempts at talking about them as ATTACK ON ISLAM.
Brother it is our so called Muslim and Christian Dalits who have said on record [ see references] that their politicians and rich don’t care for them and have led to this state of theirs. They want the Constitutional Order of 1950 Para 3, which says Muslims can’t be SC repealed.
Quran and Bible say there are no caste in Muslims/Christians, Rich and upper caste Muslims and Christians [ since there are lower castes, so logically others are upper otherwise there is no lower] say there is no caste based inequality, Lower castes/Dalits in Islam and Christianity say there are caste based inequalities.
The evangelists of both religions promised the MOON to the followers but failed to keep up their promises. So I hope that they realize this and since none of the scripture can be amended to included the caste concept [ I personally don't agree with the concept too] , they accept the reality to fix the rot. Hindus have learnt it the hard way to accept that there are some practices from past which must not continue in FUTURE. Sati is one example. Hope they learn by experience and help those lower castes and stop shunning away from realities.
I reiterate, I don’t support any caste based reservation for followers of any religion. I wish the Muslims and Christian leaders came forward to help those who need them rather than becoming PUPPETS in the hands of vote bank politicians.
PS: Also repealing the above mentioned section of constitution is not a SOLUTION as it will trigger demands of an uncomfortable UNIFORM CIVIL CODE being brought which All India Muslim Personal Law Board so despises. It is simple logic if you want same rights for Muslim Dalits then there must be same laws for Muslims. It can’t work this way you get same rights and different laws. The solution has to come from inside the community , rather than constitutional amendments.
References:
1) Indian Muslims (http://indianmuslims.in) was established on 1st January 2006 to provide a platform to discuss issues concerning Indian Muslims.
2) http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2005/20051130-muslim-dalits.htm
About Varun Mittal
Super infromatvie writing; keep it up.
Tilak and leaders of his time opposed the Bengal partition in 1905-6 tooth and nail because they could forsee what will happen in future
As for your knowledge it all started with Government of India Act 1909. Since then the politicians of your beloved Congress party have contributed as per best of their abilities to strengthen it.
The Act of 1909 stipulated, as demanded by the Muslim leadership that Indian Muslims be allotted reserved seats in the Municipal and District Boards, in the Provincial Councils and in the Imperial Legislature;
* that the number of reserved seats be in excess of their relative population (25 percent of the Indian population); and,
* that only Muslims should vote for candidates for the Muslim seats (‘ separate electorates’).
These concessions were a constant source of strife 1909-47. British statesmen generally considered reserved seats as regrettable in that they encouraged communal extremism as Muslim candidates did not have to appeal for Hindu votes and vice versa. As further power was shifted from the British to Indian politicians in 1919, 1935 and after, Muslims were ever more determined to hold on to, and if possible expand, reserved seats and their weightage. However, Hindu politicians repeatedly tried to eliminate reserved seats as they considered them to be undemocratic and to hinder the development of a shared Hindu-Muslim Indian national feeling.
The brother please go to its root “the appeasement thing” and try to find out why this circumstances has arrived today that people(political party or an person) has to appease Muslims or any class of people. Please find out what has caused such thing ti happen. You are only quoting the problems but you are not proposing the potential solution or the change agent. Simply criticizing will not help anything or change anything for better.
Bhaijaan I have no problem with Muslims and their beliefs. Main har us cheez ke peeche pada hoon jo mere hisab se galat hai ….chahe wo sati ho, caste system ho ya vote bank politics ho … main kisi politician ya party ko support nahi kar raha …sab ek jaise hain …only some are lesser evil …
As for my quote, I wish the caste and minority appeasement would let a common man live. 50% seats you can’t compete on , same taxes, more fees even after admission , agitations for more privileges and rights after having the above stated ones …..and you think the others are letting us LIVE…. Live and Let Live …don’t stop others from living with dignity
I have problem with caste system, I have problem with APPEASEMENT on the basis of caste, religion, region.I appreciate and have even shared the views of Muslim scholars who think progressively. I have problem with TheSilentPM saying Minorities have first right to resources in India instead of saying the poor have it.
I have no hatred against muslims , but yes I oppose any and every hindu and muslim who indulges in APPEASEMENT.
I try to and fail to understand why some politicians oppose the same “Vande Matram” which Ashfaqullah Khan, Bhagat Singh and Rajguru used to motivate them and a whole generation.
I try to and fail to understand why some politicians have a problem with accepting that every citizen of country is equal in eyes of law.
I repeat I have no Hatred but yes I oppose appeasement. I am maybe as you say obstinate against this appeasement.
All the best.
My point is simple now to you and to all those like you.
Musalmano ke piche kyun pade ho bhai.
U say your best quote is “live and let live” but this is not what you follow by your writings. You do not have to write on muslim subjects. Muslims are there to think on them and to bring changes.
Why don’t people like you concentrate on grave problems within hindus rather than pointing fingers on muslims.
I dont know but if u keep on offending muslims like this then God help you. By saying this I know i may sound silly but this is reality, neither u can help nor I can atleast in near future that some muslims are very emotional and their outburst are not in good interest. I thought i might help you understand things but you are so stubborn and by the way you write seems you are specifically dedicating time to find and filter petty issues within muslims or may be hyped for nothing subject and then garnish it and present in a way that gratify your deep roted hatred against muslims.
Last but not the least I took so long to reply since I was damn caught up in my work and now I don’t feel like replying to your post since your attitude is to be obstinate rather than to understanding things.
Dear Amir, do read this
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/No-SC-tag-for-dalit-Christians-Muslims/articleshow/7723522.cms
Brother , a couple of points-
1) I did criticize caste based reservations for all religions .I have suffered a lot because of it , and I can never ever support it.
Quote – “I reiterate, I don’t support any caste based reservation for followers of any religion. ”
2) Also, I didn’t criticize the Muslims asking for reservation. I was criticizing the Muslim parties and leaders and those who promised them moon while converting them. Those who have all the time in world to oppose any progressive move made in country , issue ridiculous fatwas ( not all of them are bad) but not allow updating syllabus of Madarsas.
3) Your Quote –
“It also clearly mentioned in the article that Muslim and Chrictian dalits are demanding this since their Hindu counterpart are enjoying concession. So the Big question Why inequality first of all????”
—> There can be no Hindu counterparts to these so called dalits because there is nothing called dalit in Islam. So even though the caste based reservation which I am dead against is still there, there is no reason for more people being given it. If at all it should be it should be only economic status based reservation in which people from all religions and caste get access to resources. The irony here is that these protesting people didn’t ask for ECONOMIC STATUS BASED reservation, they wanted Dalit status.
It is very convenient to play RELIGION, CASTE, HAVE NOT, INEQUALITY card as it suits them. Let them ask for scrapping all caste based reservations and have only reservations for poor , no matter what his religion or caste it and I will be more than happy to support it. The inequality was there before we all were born. We can’t change past. Only thing we can do it is to not encourage the SPREAD OF this virus in whatever name it tries to. It would be nice be people don’t claim to be “RIGHTFUL OWNER” and continue to break the society into more parts. What was hilarious was instead if UNDOING ONE WRONG we should do 1 more WRONG….What a solution they proposed and you supported
Reply to your Point:
1.Ok , good you dont support any caste based reservation for follower of any religion.
2.I was criticizing the Muslim parties and leaders and those who promised them moon while converting them. Those who have all the time in world to oppose any progressive move made in country , issue ridiculous fatwas ( not all of them are bad) but not allow updating syllabus of Madarsas.
Promised them moon while conveting them, are you referring to conversion to Islam. No Political party carry out any conversion drive and that too these days where muslims are most vulnerable. The conversion are through invitation where Islam is being preached and converting to Islam is solely on personal will. The abject poverty of Muslims in India and origin of caste system is subject we already discussed a lot on. I dont want to repeat again and again.
As regarding fatwas whether or not they are ridiculous, kindly leave them to muslims to solve their interal issues. There are lot of issues amongst Hindus to be looked at and corrected.
3.There can be no Hindu counterparts to these so called dalits because there is nothing called dalit in Islam.
I didnt emphasise that there are Muslim and christians dalits. I said that refering to the article you only posted where dalit muslims and christians is clearly mentioned.
Asking for reservation on caste basis is one and same thing for them since they are the one who are majorly poor and deprived.
Moreover I had already expressed that caste based reservation should be wiped out and instead a solution should be charted out to bring the poor into the mainstream and let them have taste of the sweet pie of the great indian development.
You have been choosy in responding to my post. Either you are not reading them properly or simply picking point where you think you have a reply to.
I am not being choosy sir, just that you have been too ignorant of various truths….
As for conversions, I wish you could use some history books to see how many of them were so peaceful as mentioned. But that is past, read the below mentioned interview for the attitude of muslim clergy and haves to ensure the have nots remain as they are
As for fatwas , i will write a post specifically to bring to your knowledge some of those.
An interview for your reference, which highlights some of the points I made in the this and previous post of mine
http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/slide-show-1-india-cannot-shine-if-170-million-muslims-remain-poor/20110309.htm
Aijaz Ilmi is chairman of the Executive Board of Siyasat Jadid, a popular Urdu newspaper brought out from Kanpur and Lucknow. He is a senior political analyst with the television channel News X, and writes on Muslim, national and international issues in various newspapers. In this interview with Yoginder Sikand, he reflects on the present Indian Muslim leadership.
Ok. I went through the article, fine Dalit Muslims and Christians are demanding quota in jobs and education. The article is dated Nov 2009, I dont know how strongly they demanded since this never became a national news that means it was low profile agitation and did not gather much attention of Nation like the Gujjar Movement who even resorted to violence and disrupting state machinery.
It also clearly mentioned in the article that Muslim and Chrictian dalits are demanding this since their Hindu counterpart are enjoying concession. So the Big question Why inequality first of all????
Secondly again your argument does not hold any ground that since muslims cannot resolve inequality amongst themselves they are demanding concessions. Let me tell you even if muslims resolve their inequality internally, they will still be eligible for reservation due to their very bad economic condition or special concession given to hindus should be removed first.
Above all this I too agree with Firoz bakht Ahmed statement that reservation is not the solution.
The irony is on one hand poor and poverty stricken Muslims are treated differently and their demand to treat them equally is being critisized.
You didnt directly answer my questions but you yourself have given asnwer, that
It is not Muslism but Hindus who are enjoying special benefits even though Muslims are lagging behind more than their hindu counterpart.
I think you should first critisize the reservation system and propage first a fair solution for this before critisizing underprivelaged Muslims for demanding reservations who are actually righful owner of such policy.
Brother , please see these links I put in Reference
3) http://www.asianews.it/news-en/Thousands-of-Christian-and-Muslim-Dalits-march-against-discrimination-16894.html
4) http://www.twocircles.net/2010jul26/muslim_leadership_has_always_ignored_dalit_muslims_dalit_muslim_leaders.html
These are the instances of Muslim Dalits holding protest and asking for special rights. There was Gujjar agitation and there were Muslim agitations too. See the Links…
As for Muslim leaders I am referring to all the those mentioned in the links above and those parties like IUML and other Muslim parties like the one which are very strong in Hyderabad , western UP and states like Assam. There are very few who accept the truth and voice it…One of them I really respect is Firoz Bakht Ahmed Statement
As for your last three questions – There is no national quota for Muslim Dalits as of now, though they are making lot of agitations for it. So none of the 3 questions can be answered. So only when they get the reservation there can be talk to %.
Brother You wrote : I never questioned Islam or Quran. I only questioned the behavior and actions of Muslim leaders. As for political divisions amongst them , it is good that they resolve amongst themselves. Just that Indian Muslim couldn’t solve it and wanted special concessions for them from Government of India . I will be happy if they solve it amongst themselves
————————————————————————-
Which Muslims leader. Who are you considering as Muslim leader, which muslim leader is representing Muslims in India or which you specificallt referring a person or any party, please be specific.
You are saying that “Just that Indian Muslim couldn’t solve it and wanted special concessions for them from Government of India . I will be happy if they solve it amongst themselves “
Are you sure that Muslims are pressing and demanding for reservations. I can see Gujjar movement for reservation so this applies to Hindus and not to muslims. Can you name 1 such movements led by so called low caste muslims demanding special concessions.
Actually its other way, the special concession was created first to address inequalities amongst Hindus and then Muslims were also included.Muslims are trying to shed the inequalities but this will not lead to removal of special concession since simultaneously Hindus should also have been able to achieve this.
Moreover the concessions are mostly benefited by poor people(Muslim or Hindus) those belonging to low economic strata of society.
The root cause of this concession based on caste is not CASTE. Actually it is the un-inclusive growth of India which is leaving behind the poor. I see that India is marching ahead and trying its best for inclusive growth and so these system will also get abolished once every community is prospering.
But last but not the least can you answer these:
1. What percentage of Muslims in India belongs to low caste eligible of benefiting concession and corresponding what percentage of Hindus belongs to low caste eligible to benefiting concession as per law.?
2. What percentage of Muslims and Hindus amongst the low caste are rightful beneficiary of concession considering their economic condition and what percentage have actually benefited in both communities?
3.Amongst the actual beneficiaries of concession(SC/ST/OBC reservation in Education and in Govt.Jobs) what percentage is of Muslims and what percentage is of Hindus.?
1 and 2 are Islam specific beliefs and I can’t speak on them. Muslims are free to believe so.
3 and 4 – I never tried to malign Islam or Muslims. I just wanted to draw your attention to the fact that it is Muslims brothers of those Dalits which are denying the realities. I also said Quran, Haddis, can’t be questioned and so in the current perspective the upper caste Muslims should accept that fact that there does exist inequalities. We both agree these are wrong and as per Quran itself all Muslim are equal so they can’t claim special privileges. My point was AGAINST YOUR NOT AGREEING THAT ISLAM ALSO HAS INEQUALITIES IN INDIA and the propaganda that only Hinduism has inequalities
These inequalities are not problem of 1 religion but the whole nation. Hoping for a day Muslim leaders stop ignoring the harsh realities on ground and start acting to resolve the issues. The first step has to be accepting the TRUTH.
5. Will explain in detail , in the next post. The crux is different set of laws for Hindus and Muslims in India.
I never questioned Islam or Quran. I only questioned the behavior and actions of Muslim leaders. As for political divisions amongst them , it is good that they resolve amongst themselves. Just that Indian Muslim couldn’t solve it and wanted special concessions for them from Government of India . I will be happy if they solve it amongst themselves
So you have problem with Muslims having seperate personal laws and a board controlling that. Hmm let me see what and why do you see it as problem and most importantly who all in India see it as a problem and why. How it is impacting the larger society. What is the problem faced by HIndus because of seperate personal laws for Muslims and how will any problem be solved by having a uniform civil code.
But if your only question is Why must Muslim have seperate personal laws then please state that clearly.
1) Why should they have a separate law. Isn’t having separate laws an ACT OF DISCRIMINATION in favor of 1 religion.
2) I have problem with people using Islam for marrying multiple times E.g Dharmendra, he still carries his old name but embraced Islam. People are using Islam as legal safe haven for marrying multiple times and All India Muslim Personal Law Board is so sissy about it
3) When Supreme Court decided to come to aid to poor Shah Bano , Muslim leaders force CONGRESS government to pass order against Supreme Court rule because they can’t see a poor lady being given her rights.
All religions in India are understanding that there were some things in past which need to change…Hindus abolished Sati, they still need to improve on inter caste marriage, other also improving…. But our Muslims leaders are OBSESSED with not living with the times… Letting people misuse your religion ( converts for marriage and husbands ill treating wives) and then saying they are ACCUMULATING SINS and GOD will punish them is such an easy get away…
GOD will do what he has to do …what are they doings as elders and leaders of community …
Where exactly is the facebook like link ?
I am sorry I have not added it yet. I will try to do so soon.
Thanks for your feedback
Well documented Varun, You are perfectly correct in stating that If there is NO CASTE in Islam then why should there be CASTE based reservations for Muslims.
Let me try my bit to let you digest some facts.
1. Islam and Muslim is not confined to INDIA. Some practices(evil specifically) of Muslims in India cannot be attributed to Islam as a whole and cannot be generalized. Islam is for entire humanity, Islam is for entire world and Islam is meant till the Judgement Day.
2. Quran is the only yardstick to judge Islam and to make comment on it. Not the practices of Muslims in some part of the world that deviate from Islam and Sunnah(the practice of Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him).
3. So called Dalit Muslim in India(ooo are there Dalit Muslims in any other part of the world or in any Muslim Country) try finding some fact on this in you neighbouring country the most populous Muslim Country, yes Indonesia. So I was saying the so called poor, deprived Dalit Muslim outcasted by their own muslim brothers although not as strictly as thier HIndu counterparts, are enjoying some special previlages in the name if reservations akin to HIndu Dalits, correct totally agreed and I am totally against reservation system. Let me clarify you in point 4 below.
4. Dalit is not the name given by Muslims or Islam. None of Muslims were Dalits before coming to India. when Hindus in India converted to Islam they failed to shed their deep rooted practice of Casteism and continued with it even after becoming Muslims and for this act they be damned, they have for sure acumulated sins for practicing casteism. Islam cannot be blamed not Quran can be questioned. An evil act of Muslim cannot be used to malign Islam or Muslims as a whole.
5. I cannot understand content of you P.S. kindly elaborate. Uniform Civil Code, AIMPLB.??????
Brother Varun before questioning Islam or Quran please keep in mind the presence of Islam in the world as a whole and not only in India. I can understand that for Hindus India is the only country(including Nepal) where practices of Hindus can be looked at but this does not hold true for Islam. There are approximately 50 Muslim countries and please do not drag political fight or division amongst Muslims, that can be made a seperate topic to discuss.
Umm.. I have been reading your arguments since the predecessor of this post. One, I do not believe in any religion, so my comment is please not biased on any religion. Two, in your point number one, you said that you can’t attribute actions of a section of the Muslim community to the whole Islamic community. True. But then again, in the previous post, Varun just pointed out one instance of a mosque. One particular instance. That could have been a temple as easily and I bet he would have still written an article on it. So for that particular instance, why are you taking the post as an offence to the whole Islamic community? The point Varun was trying to make was against the Kerala government not Islam. And I can bet that most of the Kerala government consists of Hindus. The only point I am trying to make is the reason this argument started in the first place seems completely baseless to me. Sorry Amir and sorry Varun, but that’s what I feel.